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So, I am still salty about our Codex...still disappointed...but there's nothing I can do about it...

All I can do is play on and try to show that Blood Angels can be competitive in 8th...tough considering on YouTube I am yet to find one game post-Codex of Blood Angels winning...

Command Points (CP) are essential to Blood Angels competitiveness. But GW screwed us over by making it extremely difficult to actually make a list to suit a Blood Angels play-style without compromising CPs, especially given that the decent stratagems are multi-CP cost and are nigh on essential to allow Blood Angels to be playable let alone competitive. GW also screwed us by making ~3 must take Relics, which will cost you 3 CPs straight off the bat, before you even start playing! These are The Veritas Vitae (which Dante should have got automatically or something like it), The Angel's Wing, and the Standard of Sacrifice (for those who bite the expensive bullet and bring an (Sang) Ancient)...So, by the time you are 3 CPs down, and potentially 4 CPs down if you want the bonus of a Death Company character...you won't have many left if you have gone for 1 Battalion or none left if you have gone elite heavy with the other Detachments. I have seen lists emerging with 2 Battalions and minimal scouts to bring the additional CPs, and I think just for the CPs alone this is the minimum you'll need to enable the key stratagems to buff your expensive and underpowered elite units (Death Company FNP should be better!).

This got me looking towards maximising the CPs in my list, and the immediate way of going about this from a Detachment perspective is with a Brigade...but would this even work with Blood Angels? Especially given the Troop, Fast Attack and Heavy Support tax...Well, I tried and here it is... This is supposed to be competitive, in your face, and Blood Angelsy!:

HQ:

Librarian with Jump Pack (Warlord - with either Soulwarden, Heroic Bearing, or Artisan of War), Force Axe, [The Veritas Vitae] - 122
Chaplain with Jump Pack (Death Visions of Sanguinius option), [The Angel's Wing] - 90
Lieutenant with Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Power Sword - 82

Elites:

Sanguinary Guard, 8 man, 6 Plasma Pistols, 2 Inferno Pistols, 5 Encarmine Swords, 3 Power Fists - 316
Sanguinary Ancient, Encarmine Sword, Angelus Boltgun, Death Mask, [Standard of Sacrifice] - 101
Death Company with Jump Packs, 8 man, 3 Thunder Hammers, 3 Inferno Pistols - 235

Troops:

Scout Squad, 8 man, Combat Knives, Power Sword, (maybe 2-3 Shotguns) - 92
Scout Squad, 8 man, Combat Knives, Power Sword, (maybe 2-3 Shotguns) - 92
Scout Squad, 8 man, Combat Knives, Power Sword, (maybe 2-3 Shotguns) - 92
Scout Squad, 8 man, Combat Knives, Power Sword, (maybe 2-3 Shotguns) - 92
Scout Squad, 5 man, Bolters, Heavy Bolter (for Hellfire Shells option) - 65
Scout Squad, 5 man, Bolters, Missile Launcher (for Flakk Missile option) - 80

Fast Attack:

Scout Bikes, 3 man, Inferno Pistol - 84
Scout Bikes, 3 man, Inferno Pistol - 84
Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 64

Heavy Support:

Hunter, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 98
Hunter, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 98
Whirlwind, Vengeance Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 112

Total: 1999 points.

Tactics-wise: the four combat knife Scout Squads all deploy where possible 9" away from the enemy deployment zone threatening charges across a wide front, especially with the Red Thirst buff. The bolter squads sit in the back field looking after objectives and the tanks. Otherwise against other alpha strike lists the Scouts are used to push out the bubble, but I think the in your face deployment will generally fair better.

The three Heavy Support tanks spread out in the back and take shots of opportunity. The Hunters give some air cover and anti-tank and the Whirlwind with Vengeance Launcher would look for small elite/annoying units to pester out of line of sight.

The Scout Bikes and Attack Bike would roll up one flank looking for key targets such as the enemies heavy support, tanks and other back field units.

The Death Company may actually have a place starting on the table, rather than dropping from reserves, exploiting Forlorn Fury (other 2 CPs down before the game actually starts...) to move up and then 1st turn (either if you start or you survive the enemy's while in cover) move into Inferno Pistol range of the largest threat before charging in! Whilst being backed up by supporting charges of the combat knife Scout squads...

The Chaplain would drop down from reserves to support the Death Company and Scouts initially...potentially using his Angel's Wing to prevent the enemy's key unit from overwatching the Death Company by going in first (in this case you'd have to use Decent of Angels to guarantee their follow up charge I reckon).

Then when the time was right, probably alpha, or after key enemy units have dropped, the Sanguinary Guard, Ancient, Librarian, and Lieutenant death star comes down. The Plasma Pistols should do a lot of work with both the Warlord hit re-rolls and Lieutenant re-rolls for 1s to wound, before charging, probably using Decent of Angels. The Librarian uses Unleash Rage (instead of taking Sanguinor) to ensure +1 attacks even if he doesn't make the charge as its 12" ranged. The other power could be Shield of Sanguinius if required, but probably not, Quickening or Blood Boil may be better when he's on the board. You just have to really hope the Ancient makes it into the combat to for the 5+ FNP and re-roll 1s to wound buff in combat (depending where the Lieutenant is for this buff). Against the enemies biggest threat you'd also hope by this point you have 3 CPs left for an Honour the Chapter second fight! Blood Angels should have got something like this for 2 CPs, say if they are equipped with Jump Packs, for the fluff...And the Guard could again be supported by a couple of the combat Scout Squads charging in...

Note: Blood Angels characters should auto make the charge if a unit which started its charge within 3" of the character makes it in imo!!!

Obviously a Brigade comes with its own problems, yes you gain 12 CPs (with battle forged), but you have a lot of table drops to place which may mean your opponent gets the +1 to go first roll. Not good, when really you are wanting to go first with this list, but who doesn't in 8th... So, -3 CPs for the Relics, -1 CP for Death Visions (maybe), -2 CPs for Forlorn Fury...so 6 CPs down before the start of game...then 1st turn (maybe) -2 CP for Decent of Angels, and (maybe) -3 CPs for an Honour the Chapter (or -2 CPs for another use of Decent of Angels), leaving just 1 CP for Upon Wings of Fire, Hellfire, Flakk, Cluster Mines, or Red Rampage...not even accounting for Command Re-rolls use of CPs!!!! Personally I think GW really mucked Blood Angels up big time with this stratagem necessity, as without all these stratagems I think Blood Angels are one of the weakest, glass hammer armies in 40K...Sad times...Blood Angels units with Jump Packs should have all just got Decent of Angels as standard...but hey ho, may be its just me.

Overall though, what do you think of the list? I could obviously immediately 'reallocate' 132 points by minimising the combat knife Scout Squads, but I kept them 8 man for a reason, mainly to give them some staying power in combat, and given that the Troops are a large fraction of the list I wanted them to have a presence even after taking small arms fire as they would be used aggressively.

I diden't really have time to read the whole post but I can see your pretty salty and your looking for some lists. In the recent Las Vegas Open, one of the biggest tournaments in 40k there was a few highly successful BA lists. Heres one pure BA List.

https://miniheadquarters.com/rosters/details/3-lvo-blood-angels

Tweaks:

For the loss of two Scouts, I think that a Plasma Pistol for the Sanguinary Ancient, with his Heirs of Azkaellon protection against 1s to hit with the Libby nearby, and the addition of a Combi-Melta for the Lieutenant with Jump Pack will be much more effective...

V2.0

HQ:

Librarian with Jump Pack (Warlord - with either Soulwarden, Heroic Bearing or Artisan of War), Force Axe, [The Veritas Vitae] - 122
Chaplain with Jump Pack (Death Visions of Sanguinius option), [The Angel's Wing] - 90
Lieutenant with Jump Pack, Combi-Melta, Power Sword - 101

Elites:

Sanguinary Guard, 8 man, 6 Plasma Pistols, 2 Inferno Pistols, 5 Encarmine Swords, 3 Power Fists - 316
Sanguinary Ancient, Encarmine Sword, Plasma Pistol, Death Mask, [Standard of Sacrifice] - 105
Death Company with Jump Packs, 8 man, 3 Thunder Hammers, 3 Inferno Pistols - 235

Troops:

Scout Squad, 8 man, Combat Knives, Power Sword, (maybe 2-3 Shotguns) - 92
Scout Squad, 8 man, Combat Knives, Power Sword, (maybe 2-3 Shotguns) - 92
Scout Squad, 7 man, Combat Knives, Power Sword, (maybe 2 Shotguns) - 81
Scout Squad, 7 man, Combat Knives, Power Sword, (maybe 2 Shotguns) - 81
Scout Squad, 5 man, Bolters, Heavy Bolter (for Hellfire Shells option) - 65
Scout Squad, 5 man, Bolters, Missile Launcher (for Flakk Missile option) - 80

Fast Attack:

Scout Bikes, 3 man, Inferno Pistol - 84
Scout Bikes, 3 man, Inferno Pistol - 84
Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 64

Heavy Support:

Hunter, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 98
Hunter, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 98
Whirlwind, Vengeance Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 112

Total: 2000 points!

Although I hate GW's decision to omit key things from the Index in the Codex (i.e. jump packed character choices), I had a look back to it recently - as we are entitled to do - to see if I can buff the list more efficiently...[It was just so lazy and clunky of them, and I'm sure some tournaments will not permit you to use it etc.]

The Sanguinary Ancient was always a lot of points and his buff was just okay, as in my list his reroll 1s in the fight phase was a little redundant with the Lieutenant around. I definitely wanted the Standard of Sacrifice in the list though, so I had a look at the old Company Ancient again - specifically the one from the Index where you can give him a Jump Pack...

You get the same leadership buff as the Sanguinary Ancient but you actually then get the awesome ability where models within 6" that die, on a 4+ get one more shooting or melee attack! This was looking interesting, especially given he is less points too.

Also, after being uncertain for a long time about the usefulness of Priests or Novitiates, after seeing Luke's awesome recent battle report where the +1 strength buff, the heal D3 wounds ability, and the ability to return powerful unit models back from the dead once a turn on a 4+ (i.e. Sanguinary Guard) was really beneficial, I thought somehow I may be able to squeeze a Priest into the list without impacting too much...The Priest's ability, as part of the Sanguinary Guard Death Star, would complement the Company Ancient's Astartes ability...along with the Librarian's Unleash Rage power and Warlord Heir's trigger and the Lieutenant's Tactical Precision! Now that's a Death Star...(I suppose)!

So for the (unfortunate) loss of (luckily only) two Scouts, and a couple of weapon options: I dropped one of the DC thunder hammers for 3 power swords; the Lieutenant's Combi-Melta is gone but he gets his MC Bolter back which actually is still pretty good for the points; and the Scout ML is replaced with another HB (still gives me the Hellfire Option against flyers if required), everything else is relatively unscathed in the list.

V3.0

HQ:

Librarian with Jump Pack (Warlord - with either Soulwarden, Heroic Bearing or Artisan of War), Force Axe - 122
Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack (Index), Power Sword, [The Veritas Vitae] - 90
Chaplain with Jump Pack (Death Visions of Sanguinius option), [The Angel's Wing] - 90
Lieutenant with Jump Pack, Master-crafted Boltgun, Power Sword - 85

Elites:

Company Ancient with Jump Pack (Index), [Standard of Sacrifice] - 72
Sanguinary Guard (with Jump Packs), 8 man, 6 Plasma Pistols, 2 Inferno Pistols, 5 Encarmine Swords, 3 Power Fists - 316
Death Company with Jump Packs, 8 man, 2 Thunder Hammers, 3 Power Swords, 3 Boltguns, 3 Inferno Pistols - 231

Troops:

Scout Squad, 7 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 2 Shotguns) - 81
Scout Squad, 7 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 2 Shotguns) - 81
Scout Squad, 7 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 2 Shotguns) - 81
Scout Squad, 7 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 2 Shotguns) - 81
Scout Squad, 5 man, Boltguns, Heavy Bolter (for Hellfire Shells option) - 65
Scout Squad, 5 man, Boltguns, Heavy Bolter (for Hellfire Shells option) - 65

Fast Attack:

Scout Bikes, 3 man, Inferno Pistol - 84
Scout Bikes, 3 man, Inferno Pistol - 84
Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 64

Heavy Support:

Hunter, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 98
Hunter, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 98
Whirlwind, Vengeance Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 112

Total: 2000 points. 12 CPs. [-3 CPs if all Relics taken].

But is it better...?

Sorry about the long message....

Interesting thread, I’m working on a Blood Angels army at the moment, currently half in boxes :/

I like your lists, especially the last one. Completely understand the frustration at the problem of command points!

The idea of using the company ancient rather than the saguinary one is great, hitting back on a 4+ could prove important (providing your in combat or in range!)

I’ve been experimenting with Primaris Marines. The list I have at the moment is:

Battalion

Dante
Librarian with jump pack and Veritas vitae

2 x 5 man scout squad with combat knives
1 x 5 man scout squad with sniper rifles

Outrider

Lieutenant with jump pack (maybe warlord to hang with sang guard)
Sanguinary priest with jump pack and angels wing

2 x 5 man inceptors
1 x land speeder with multi melta and auto cannon

Vanguard

Chaplain with jump pack

10 death coy, 2 hammers, 2 power sword
8 sang Guard with various plasma
Company ancient with jump pack and standard of sacrifice

Idea being that most of the army drops in turn 1/2. Dante, and the ancient hang with the inceptors branding re-rolls and firing back as well as 5+++. Chaplain and sang priest drop with death coy, sang guard drop in with lieutenant. There’s a bit of versatility in how I use them as there’s loads of options for buffs. The land speeder is in to be a problem and because I have one, and I need a third fast attack!

I have various other options such as terminators, more death coy, intersessors, tactical marines, sang ancient, Captain with jump pack, a Baal pred and I’m contemplating hellblasters to use as a firebase butnit doesn’t feel thematic.

Grateful for thoughts. I like the idea of all that fire coming in from the inceptors and they aren’t bad in combat either!

I though Incepters would be no good...but having faced them a few times they are deadly...and would look very cool in the BA army:)

you'd only be able to have all that deep strike in open play games thou as you need at least half your army on the board unless you throw in some transports

Warhammer 40,000 Big FAQ 1 Impact.

It's been a week or so since the FAQ has dropped...and to be honest I was extremely concerned when I heard about certain things...however it is not actually all bad!...except the Beta Tactical Reserves rule which means Blood Angels are now somehow incompetent at conducting surprise jump assaults which the Chapter's fluff is based around...thanks GW (sic)...(Dante face-palms!)

There are in fact some lucky and great positives for my list: The first one, which I was really concerned about initially, is that it just so happens that adding up the Power Ratings of all the units in the army which would have been starting on the table (troops, fast attack, heavy support = 66 PR) this amazingly equals what I would typically hold in Tactical Reserves (elites, HQs = 66 PR), meeting the new Beta Tactical Reserves requirement in matched play! Incredibly lucky I don't need to change anything...or just fluffy Blood Angels-y list building by me ;-)!

Second positive is that as my list is a Brigade it now benefits significantly from the Detachment Command Benefits related errata. Brigades now get +12 Command Points (CP), no longer 'just' 9 CP! Therefore my list will start with 15 CP being Battleforged!!! This is much, much, much better for my Blood Angels and opens up more Stratagems possibilities! Exactly what my list and many other Blood Angels lists were crying out for...

Luke, you are going to have to use your low number of CP for Stratagems and/or re-rolls so carefully with your current Blood Angels build, as most opponents at a minimum with have far more re-roll/stratagem opportunities to help them win if they take even just a Battalion (now +5 CP)...you'll have to rely on pure unit strength (uh oh) and dice rolling luck (you're no Spider, Scorpy) most of the time!

What are your thoughts on the Big FAQ 1?

I think my list perfectly highlights the big impacts to Blood Angels...not being able to drop and charge outside of deployment zone turn 1 is a massive impact to Blood Angels and I think in Chapter Approved or next FAQ they need army specific rules changes (like Genestealer Cults) where Bloods Angels with Jump Packs are not effected or something! With my list, the Scouts have to now survive a whole turn in the face (hopefully getting into combat and surviving or wrecking face) of the enemy before any other support comes...it's going to be tough unless I play more cautiously and hunker them down in cover and out of line of sight (relying on terrain and its lay out in a big way)...interesting times ahead!

I think the inclusion of scouts is very much a positive thing and helps to mitigate some of the weaknesses of the BA list, I think I would do some things differently but we shall have to wait and see for the trial games. I also agree that some of the issues BA-players have had with CA is unwarranted, certainly for those tho ran a balanced list in the first place.

Warlord choice: Librarian with Jump Pack vs. Smash Captain

I took a Librarian with a jump pack for a reason, well a number of reasons: First of all to give Unleash Rage (+1 attack) to the Sanguinary Guard even if he fails to charge along with them when they drop (up to 12" away not just 6" like the Sanguinor's buff); secondly, to give Shield of Sanguinius to the Sanguinary Guard (5++ save); thirdly roaming Smite ability and deny the witch rolls; fourth-ly as Warlord he gives the Sanguinary Guard rerolls to hit if within 6" to be used more in a support roll behind them keeping out of trouble; finally I didn't want to jump on the bandwagon and go straight to having a Smash Captain (the in vogue Blood Angels build) who I think you'd want to use differently and not necessarily keep beside the Sanguinary Guard at all times negating their reroll to hit ability...The down sides being he has no invulnerable save and is just 'okay' at taking out targets by himself...

With a Smash Captain (Captain with Jump-Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Angel's Wing, Gift of Foresight (Warlord trait), and Death Visions of Sanguinius (1 CP Strategem)) you get one of the best beat sticks in the game certainly for Blood Angels. However to fully utilise the Sanguinary Guard's Heirs of Azkaellon he needs to try to stay close to them most of the time, potentially limiting the potential threat radius of your army. Although given that he now has the Angel's Wing (rather than say the Chaplain previously in my list) he can charge first negating the enemy's over-watch before the Guard charge saving unnecessary Guard losses. As stated, he can go off on his own more than the Librarian as he is a far bigger threat to anything...and I suppose I can't forget he grants all nearby friendly Blood Angels units the ability to re-roll a result of 1 to hit (other than the Guard who would get full rerolls to hit)...it helps out the other characters in my list I suppose who have jump packs (as the death company will have the chaplain with them getting full rerolls also). Points wise its almost the same, the Smash Captain being 7 points more expensive (than the JP Librarian with Force Axe)...

So what will be better for my Warlord: the Librarian with Jump Pack or the Smash Captain?!?! Comments appreciated.

Furthermore, given my previous comment on the big FAQ, so long as I have four Scout units at strength 6 I maintain the 'perfect' Power Ratings number to allow all the jump pack units and characters to go into tactical reserves. So for efficiency I was thinking of dropping the units of 7 down to 6s and spending the points to make better minor improvements.

If say I went with the Smash Captain instead of the Librarian with Jump Pack I could do the following:

V4.0

HQ:

Captain with Jump Pack (Warlord - Gift of Foresight), Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, [The Angel's Wing], (Death Visions of Sanguinius option) - 129
Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack (Index), Power Sword - 90
Chaplain with Jump Pack, [The Veritas Vitae] - 90
Lieutenant with Jump Pack, Master-crafted Boltgun, Power Sword - 85

Elites:

Company Ancient with Jump Pack (Index), Inferno Pistol, [Standard of Sacrifice] - 81
Sanguinary Guard (with Jump Packs), 8 man, 6 Plasma Pistols, 2 Inferno Pistols, 4 Encarmine Swords, 4 Power Fists - 316
Death Company with Jump Packs, 9 man, 2 Thunder Hammers, 3 Power Swords, 4 Boltguns, 3 Inferno Pistols - 251

Troops:

Scout Squad, 6 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 1 Boltguns) - 70
Scout Squad, 6 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 1 Boltguns) - 70
Scout Squad, 6 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 1 Boltguns) - 70
Scout Squad, 6 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 1 Boltguns) - 70
Scout Squad, 5 man, Boltguns, Heavy Bolter (for Hellfire Shells option) - 65
Scout Squad, 5 man, Boltguns, Heavy Bolter (for Hellfire Shells option) - 65

Fast Attack:

Scout Bikes, 3 man, Inferno Pistol - 84
Scout Bikes, 3 man, Inferno Pistol - 84
Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 64

Heavy Support:

Hunter, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 98
Hunter, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 98
Whirlwind, Vengeance Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 112

Total: 1992 points. 15 CPs. [-3 CPs if all Relics taken, -1 CP if Death Visions of Sanguinius option taken for Capt Smash].

So, with dropping the four Scouts I fitted in Capt Smash, had enough for an extra Death Company marine, an Inferno Pistol on the Company Ancient to give him a nice hidden punch, and I switched an Encarmine sword for another power fist in the Sanguinary Guard (I've noticed a lot of times Sanguinary Guard end up facing vehicles and even with Red Thirst sometimes struggle, so more power fists with the x2 strength would possibly better)...what to do with the remaining 8 points however?! A Power Sword each for the other two Scout Sergeants? This is possibly the most likely option...

Overall is V4.0 better?

Yes this is the better version! Nice work!:) Any reports on performance would be good:)

I've wondered watching some of the Battle Reports is building the BA's too elitist their fault? I know they kinda aim that way but would a more standardised/less elitist version be better? They seem to wreck whatever they can get to but do seem to not do as well as other elitist offers on the channel.

Okay, thoughts for the week:

1) Warlord choice: Slamguinius or Sanguinary Priest
2) Chaplain or Lemartes!

So,

1) I have been thinking hard about in-game tactics and whether to allow Slamguinius to roam free after initially guiding the Sanguinary Guard into combat. If he remains Warlord he 'should' make the charge, permitting the Heir's their re-rolls to hit if they are within 6" - this may not happen with the Priest as Warlord without the Angel's Wing. This is the big decision point certainly during the Decent of Angels first initial drop.
Also, how significant will the loss of Slamguinius' trait be no longer being the Warlord, be it either Artisan of War or Gift of Foresight? If the Priest is Warlord I believe Soulwarden might be the best option (or only option...Heroic Bearing maybe?...) to give a much needed Deny the Witch roll since the loss of the Librarian a couple of lists ago.
I suppose if the Captain is within 6" of the Guard or charges in with them they still get his re-roll 1s buff rather than the full re-roll which isn't too bad. This may now mean he can go off on his own away from the Sanguinary Guard who desperately need to have the Warlord within 6" as much as possible. The Priest can do that for them as his job was to stay close, heal and resuscitate them away, he can help them against Psychic Powers now with Soulwarden, and give them all +1 Strength too! What a Priest! Also, people are likely to target Slamguinius straight away if they can, making the Priest the Warlord mitigates some of the loss (Slay the Warlord etc.) if the Captain goes down early...

2) The key issue here is the Chaplain's 90 points versus Lemartes 129 points. Secondly, Lemartes' Fury Unbound vs Chaplain's Litanies of Hate. Critically, as everyone knows, Lemartes' Fury allows re-rolls to charge for the Death Company, along with re-rolls to hit! Amazing! The only down side is that no one but Death Company will benefit (not helping combat Scouts or the Guard for example), as apposed to a Chaplain's Litanies which allows all Blood Angels within 6" to re-roll. I see the re-roll charge of the Death Company as the really essential thing I want in the force. The Guard can use Decent of Angels, the Death Company will have Lemartes...and potentially Forlorn Fury!
I am of course not forgetting Lemartes' extra 2 attacks base and Blood Crozius (D3 rather than flat 2 damage) over a regular Chaplain! But he is expensive in comparison. But I think he's worth it.

The final decision will be who gets the The Veritas Vitae, the Warlord Priest or the Lieutenant...

To fit Lemartes in some not in-significant changes were required but overall he fits very nicely and I think the list is even better:

V5.0

HQ:

Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack (Index), Hand flamer, Chainsword, (Warlord - Soulwarden) - 87
Captain with Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, [The Angel's Wing], (Death Visions of Sanguinius) - 129
Lemartes - 129
Lieutenant with Jump Pack, Master-crafted Boltgun, Power Sword, [The Veritas Vitae] - 85

Elites:

Company Ancient with Jump Pack (Index), Inferno Pistol, [Standard of Sacrifice] - 81
Sanguinary Guard (with Jump Packs), 8 man, 6 Plasma Pistols, 2 Inferno Pistols, 5 Encarmine Swords, 3 Power Fists - 316
Death Company with Jump Packs, 9 man, 2 Thunder Hammers, 2 Power Swords, 5 Boltguns, 2 Inferno Pistols - 238

Troops:

Scout Squad, 6 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 1 Boltguns) - 70
Scout Squad, 6 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 1 Boltguns) - 70
Scout Squad, 6 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 1 Boltguns) - 70
Scout Squad, 6 man, Combat Knives, Sergeant with Power Sword & Combat Knife, (maybe 1 Boltguns) - 70
Scout Squad, 5 man, Boltguns, Heavy Bolter (for Hellfire Shells option) - 65
Scout Squad, 5 man, Boltguns, Heavy Bolter (for Hellfire Shells option) - 65

Fast Attack:

Scout Bikes, 3 man, Inferno Pistol - 84
Scout Bikes, 3 man, Inferno Pistol - 84
Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 64

Heavy Support:

Hunter, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 98
Hunter, Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter - 98
Whirlwind, Castellan Launcher, Storm Bolter - 97

Total: 2000 points. 15 CPs. [-3 CPs if all Relics taken, -1 CP if Death Visions of Sanguinius option taken for Slamguinius].

To fit in the more expensive Lemartes I have had to drop the Index Priest's Power Sword and drop a Death Company Power Sword and Inferno Pistol (sadly). Then I was going to drop the Whirlwind, in favour of another (cheaper) Hunter but I like the idea of having a Whirlwind plinking hidden annoying small units and hordes. Luckily the points saved taking a Castellan launcher rather than the Vengeance launcher makes it a cheaper option. I had to sadly drop its Hunter Killer Missile though. With these changes and the 8 points leftover in V4.0, I had enough to fit in Lemartes with a point to spare! Hey, the ideal amount for a final handy Hand flamer for the Index Priest! I also swapped one Guard Fist back to a Sword from the previous list...

So, what do you think? Is Slamguinius too neutered without a Warlord trait?

Edit: I just noted that Lemartes is 1 PR more than a normal Chaplain (with Jump Pack), which could cause drop issues if all jump pack models did in competitive play...but in this version of the list the Death Company, Lemartes, possibly the Lieutenant and even Slamguinius would probably start on the board!

I see your reasoning for both. I think the only way to resolve this would be to try all the combos in games...thats what I would do. Only in games does the synergy or lack of it become evident!:)

Thanks Luke. Indeed!...:)